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Hi folks.
I've been playing Minecraft since about June, and hang out a lot on Minecraft forums. I saw the topic you had a while ago wherein allnaturalx came to your IRC channel and "let you have it"
What I want to nurture here is an actual discussion about what some people perceive to be fissures in World of Minecraft policy, such that both sides can present a respectable argument. I understand that World of Minecraft sees itself as a very proffessional institution and keep this close to mind in my beginning here.
For whatever reason, there does seem to be a stigma attached to World of Minecraft that it is somewhat unwelcoming and intimidating. I think that, sadly, some World of Minecraft operators tend not to be friendly and helpful, and these few form an overwhelming impression and taint the reputation of the organisation. I would love for World of Minecraft to just be a sanitary place for people who want to to play their antigrief games. I'm not into all that, personally. I like repairing griefed servers; thankless, but satisfying.
I also feel that World of Minecraft is a lot like the Nestlé of a few years ago: They would give starving babies formula milk to keep them alive. However, the mothers ceased to produce natural milk and Nestlé beggared off, leaving the babies with no food and the mothers with no way of feeding them.
WoM provide a client that makes all conventional security obsolete, leaving "traditional" servers open to grief, and then conveniently provide antigrief rooms... for members only, of course. It's a clever move, but I can't help but feel its a little sly.
Now, I apologise for the brutal metaphor. I also recognise that you provide opt-out flags for hacks on servers (+hax and whatnot)
I hope that these things can be sensibly discussed and that the marvellous people responsible here can present their own case. I hope that my post is not hostile; I do not mean for that.
SteGriff
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Thank you for your condusive reply.
I have to admit that I didn't know that hacks were off by default; are you sure that this is the case, or is it only true for no-clip?
I may take the time to play on World of Minecraft sometime, it could prove enlightening. However, while the owners may be kind, a unit is not judged only by its master, but by every link in the chain.
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Only noclip is off by default. Also: I can recognize the fact that some of our staff need retuning. Its hard for me to notice because they change their attitude immediately when I enter. The sad thing is, alot of the more senior players play on other servers due to our reputation. So only the new "younger" players join. So its hard to find staff with maturity, and that can handle the kind of power we give them without going crazy. Anyways, I'm glad to see a civil approach to the matter. And i'll be watching this thread for flames.
Any flamers in this thread will be punished.
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think that, sadly, some World of Minecraft operators tend not to be friendly and helpful
Well, It's really rare and it's not only World of Minecraft problem - it happens all the time on all Minecraft servers.
I like repairing griefed servers; thankless, but satisfying.
I can't even imagine people who try to repair, for example, my Reichstag project (which was built on the default server and griefed MANY times). Let's say it loud - default servers are worst place to build anything bigger than 150x150x100 blocks - no matter how many OPs are on, no matter how friendly and helpful they are, no matter how many time they spend on tracking griefers this structure (bigger than 150x150x100) will be griefed at least 3 times before someone finish it.
World of Minecraft provide a client that makes all conventional security obsolete, leaving "traditional" servers open to grief
All "traditional" servers are able to block all our hacks if they want to.
I think that I know the reason why some people hate World of Minecraft - they are jealous. There is no other explanation. To tell you the truth... I hated World of Minecraft too when I was playing on default servers, because I was jelous and angry that they don't have to worry about anything. This was before I understood that it's possible only because of hard work of many people.
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I frequently hear the complaint that some of our OP's (not sure if you mean every staff rank or just our operaters. I'll go with all our staff on this.)
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You present a very balanced view here, and I'm glad this is going so nicely.
I think that on your part, this potential ass-kicking for bad moderators needs to be more widely known; not everyone is going to read this thread.
You said a lot of really good stuff there, but I'm going to focus on community seperation because my brain wants me too:
The (henceforth) "Traditional Minecraft" bunch are a quirky community and quite set in their ways. I'll be the first to admit this, and admit to it myself. We like the bubble.
Disregarding the less polite and the noobs, the majority of concerns about the community seperations stem from the fact that in its initiation, World of Minecraft was seen as a cancer which divided the community. Admittedly, World of Minecraft has brought many people TO Minecraft as a whole, because you offer a secure environment; kudos for that. However, what has gone before is often difficult to repair.
Fixing the divide would be harder than it sounds. There is always going to be a degree of division because you are PHYSICALLY seperate. Seperate servers, forums, community, resources. And then there's the hacks... while they were made with good intentions, they are a constant source of controversy.
I cannot suggest any particular action, but hope to give you a wide view of the problems.
ecrider: I acknowledged the hacks flagging in my OP. MCF are not jealous, for the most part: many dislike the mode of play in your servers, and the means (they perceive) by which you achieved popularity, not just the hacks. It is this supposed arrogance about the divide which makes MCF very tired of the whole debacle. I get the impression you are just trying to shoot down my suggestions. You are denying yourself help: please assume that SMPs post is a perfect example of the class of communication I am aiming for here.
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You acknowledge that "traditional minecrafters" are a "quirky bunch" and are "set in their ways." We are not the Borg. There is no threat of assimilation, lol. We want diversity. What World of Minecraft offers isn't wrong. It's just a safe place to build without the worries of being griefed. It's also a place where thousands of members come to play/chat/have fun. I think that if the anti-World of Minecraft movement continues, then World of Minecraft will continue to be a separate community within the community of minecraft. Some people would be happy with that. Some people (like myself) would like to see us accepted by the entire minecraft community. The fact is, however, that the people who despise the things that World of Minecraft does/did will probably always feel the same way, no matter how hard we wave our olive branches.
The only promise I feel that World of Minecraft can make is to make sure that our staff continues to be as friendly, welcoming, and helpful as possible. Daedal, SMP, H4X, triddin - they are very conscientious about the perception of their "product" in the community and will not hesitate to demote/punish any staff member who acts inappropriately.
I sincerely hope for the end of all World of Minecraft hate.
Pav
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You, too, are happy in your bubble; I don't see you in MCF.
From now on, I'm going to cross-publish what I write, and be active here, too.
Thanks for taking the time to share a well-written opinion.
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You're right! I never actually thought about it that way, though. I do pretty-much exclusively spend my time on World of Minecraft servers but I don't begrudge anyone for visiting/contributing/participating in other servers. There are many fantastic servers out there with great members and I should take some time to look at them.
Thanks also to you for contributing your ideas and comments here. Perhaps this is another link in the chain of unity in Minecraft. (hoping that doesn't sound to cheesy)
:)
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Suggesting an action to take with the hacks is pretty much impossible for anyone to make. We tried having them open on all servers and we've toyed with the idea of keeping them World of Minecraft only. There's big problems with both of those and so we just have our current system, the options to have either. We also chose to disable the hacks for anyone who is a spectator on World of Minecraft.
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i honestly don't know what your talking about
Mods may not be friendly, but they are helpful to the existent that they need to be.
When a new person enters a World of Minecraft server, i see one of two things happen:
1. They are a greifer in some way,shape,or form,get spectator, and leave
2. newbie enjoys the server, ask how to be a member, mod reply with /upgrade, and after they become a member,mod reminds them of /policy, and they happy build
seems like an over all great system to me,and the staff may not be overly-friend, but they are not mean
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Well the conversation as it is is going well but it seems a bit unfair to you that this conversation is just about 'us' and 'you' as in us presenting OUR points and you presenting YOUR points. Perhaps if you can, get a few other equally mature members from the MC community so that other sides can be heard not only from you.
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I never knew that the mods were unfriendly. When i was a mod, I made sure I was constantly as nice and as welcoming as possible. I havn't met many of the other mods, mind Treylorne, so I don't know how they act. In fact, the very first person i met, River who was a mod, happened to be the most helpful person I had ever met on MC at all. I was fairly new to MC when i joined World of Minecraft, and River and the other staff of World of Minecraft had helped me through. While other servers scoffed and called me a "noob" World of Minecraft had helped me along, with friendly people and a grief free server. Some people may not like that, and thats ok. Many people enjoy fixing grief, banning griefers, makes them feel they have accomplished something. World of Minecraft has had a bad reputation, called eliteists and in some peoples words, sneaky bastards. They say we make griefing easy with hacks, then make a grief free server so they come to us. This is not true. Triddin made those hacks to make building easier, and the grief free server for those who hate greif, who hate flooding.
Sorry for the lengthy ramble, not used to long posts.
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Visiting some other servers, there are some truly amazing creations. I ask why they build on an unprotected, grief able server, reluctantly mentioning World of Minecraft, I am greeted with large amounts of rage and hate. These people hate World of Minecraft, they hate it with a passion. They hate it because ranks exist, because of the commands and the ability to use hacks such as fly and no-clip. They don't like the "my name is a different colour than yours" They don't like the "Commands make the game better cause they're easier" They don't like the "Wee, I'm flying, making it easier to build" And much to my dismay, Notch doesn't either. When presenting them with the most useful word in history "Why?", they say "Notch made Minecraft like this, not with some stupid hacks that ruin the game" That could not be further from the truth. Ranks - ranks exist so when you are presented with a problem, you know who to trust. Commands - I don't see Mincraft as a simple game where you walk around the map destroying and placing blocks, I see it as a way to create and design creations and art. Commands basically do what you want. Saying that you built that flat surface all by your self doesn't mean anything with commands, only if it takes creative form. Hacks - Hacks not only help to build, but also help people to view creations. It also helps servers to better utilize the space they are presented with, not just building on the ground.
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It's clear that a large number of people have had nothing but a good experience here. This is a sign of the value of World of Minecraft today, however, if I weren't to focus on the reverse, this would be no discussion.
It was interesting to hear that World of Minecraft is a "whole different beast" now compared to launch. I feel that that statement has a lot credence; I certainly feel quite comfortable (not quite free and easy) here.
I will address my point about the mode of play. World of Minecraft is very sterilised. In traditional MC, everyone can change everything and it's a very fluid, organic experience; everyone can edit everything, and you don't just build individual things, you all change the whole world. I really like that.
With building seperated into plots (is this your only mode of play? I am not totally informed) you sure can build some cool stuff (Reichstag) and show it to everyone, and I'm guessing that you can choose to build together, but it is not the same balance of play.
I, and -- I imagine -- some others, like to take the bad with the good, put things up, re-order things, work together, make things better, integrate things... etc. An example of something which gives me and my friends some of the best fun in MC are our clan adventures. You may wish to read about them.
I think that the old community ought to be told, earnestly, that World of Minecraft is different to the organisation that created a lot of trouble in the early days, and explain what has changed. I would be willing to back you up, based on what has been demonstrated here.
Ste
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"With building seperated into plots (is this your only mode of play? I am not totally informed) you sure can build some cool stuff (Reichstag) and show it to everyone, and I'm guessing that you can choose to build together, but it is not the same balance of play."
What you've probably seen (guessing) is the main server. Currently we are hosting a contest and the plots are for contestants and their builds. you can read up more about it here if your curious on the details.
http://www.worldofminecraft.com/node/1576
But for our mode of play, we basically let anyone built anything and we dont have much restrictions on any build. (As long as it doesn't break the policy.)
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Yes, I am participating in this contest as part of my voluntary induction.
Is that system (plot division) known as antigrief? I gather that it is no employed in all of your servers... do any of my points stand?
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You have touched upon something great here that I had never realized before! I think the "non assigned/world building" versus "controlled/assigned building" has a large part to do with hack/antihack, now that I think about it!
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Indeed. Post is right.
Not all traditional players dislike hacks. However, because of my usual mode of play, I don't find a need for them.
When I was in your compo server, building the biggest thing I've ever built, I thought "Man, I could really use hacks for this floor." Then again, a little while later, someone came in and said "WOW.", "Did you do this without hacks?"
and I felt quite proud that, actually, yes, I had. (90% proud, 10% chump, to be more precise)
Minecraft can be enjoyed both ways. I think the ideal is to coach people into playing whichever befits them better, but getting the two communities to be happy with each other.
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Well I have been playing MC for awhile now and I remember the time when there weren't any hacks.
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All true, but I think you have me wrong. I'm not against hacks in any way, and I'm not trying to tell World of Minecraft what they're doing wrong; just how the two communities can be more united.
It was interesting to hear from a hack user about the dependance; I've heard a lot of people deny that this happens, but I find that hard to believe, as I've experienced it in fields other than minecraft.
Thanks for sharing.
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some people like building by themselves
but, me and my friend always build together on World of Minecraft servers
so this part of MC is not lost here,but if you built something,wouldn't you want someone to ask to build more before they did so?
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I'm generally not the forum posting type, but i find this whole issue pretty interesting.
And i just wanted to say i have a theory about where the source of the hacks issue lies.
From what I've seen there are two general reasons people will play Minecraft, and I'm definitely not trying to pigeon hole everyone into two linear categories;
1. The builders who enjoy the actual building of structures, and for who the difficulties of non-hack construction is seen as a fun obstacle. The people who dislike hacks are generally from this category, because, as is being discussed, they feel hacks ruin the experience.
2. These builders on the other hand prefer to challenge themselves and try to out-do themselves and each other by trying to build impressive/original structures for others to admire. These guys welcome hacks as basically a means to an end, because to them its the end result that is important, as opposed to the building experience.
So i guess basically the anti-hack guys are peeved at hacks ruining the challenges and such of building, and the Cat.2 guys, who have a diff play style, obviously disagree.
Personally I'm a category 2 kinda guy and i enjoy building with my friends as well, but when i play with friends who don't have hax, the experience can feel quite lop-sided at times. Alas, i guess I'm too dependent on hacks to turn them off!
This also has another relevance in the way World of Minecraft runs their servers and how people feel about it. It certainly caters to the Cat.2 player with its space allotments and anti-hack 'magic' (lol i am no techie), but to the average 'miner' who just enjoys messing around, the rules and restrictions can come as a shock sometimes (I've had a friend been specc'ed because he wasn't sure on the rules of respecting people's property).
I think they just need to learn that once they get past the hacks and the 'scary' gold people they find its just a really laid back community where your junk won't get whacked the instant you leave (or sooner).
Anyway, its nearly 6am and i'm tired of typing so yeah, hope you enjoy my opinion on it all.
(also, first forum post)
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Thanks for sharing, and happy first post to you :)
What you're saying about the 2 categories seems close to the truth, but like you said, limiting to only 2 types is... limiting.
I think World of Minecraft tends to take matters of Minecraft etiquette and make them compulsorily enforced, which has suprising consequences for some (your friend). Conversely, I like the fact that people rarely get banned from World of Minecraft, and the spectator system; it feels less brutal.
You're right about the change between initial impression and eventual stance. I was intimidated by the coloured-text-people on my first play (2 days ago or something :P) because it was a whole alien world. I just used my manners and... 'charm'(?) and got the pitch I needed to compete. After a matter of hours, it felt quite normal. I have to say, the first (ranking) guy I encountered was a little cold with me, but not impolite.
I have pointed MCF to this thread. You may see the parrallel thread here: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?pid=50328
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I try to tell my admins to always warn players first. Because to people who grew up with World of Minecraft, its like "He broke that block that isn't his?!? HE IS EVIL". I try to let them know that some servers allow constructive edits. And that you should always treat people's "traditions" with respect. And that kindly informing them that it's not allowed as opposed to just spectating them could cut down a lot on griefers.
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I see many to mods or admins constantly judging to harshly on minor mistakes and treating anyone who has made that mistake like they are some kind of troll or some sort of murderer instead of the human beings they are and that everyone makes mistakes. I try to the best of my abilities to explain this to them, most understand but for those who refuse to even try to understand (the bad mods) I can only watch until demotions are brought down onto them by their own mistakes. Though being strict is part of being a leader, so is understanding the people and to judge only by character and not by silly mistakes.
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Quote from MineCraft Forums by AlexVMiner:
I shall still ban hacks from my server, seeing as I don't like random people zipping around, but I won't complain about them. I will also use hacks for certain purposes, like if I want to film something.
Thanks everyone for enlightening me.
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all the admins and mods ive met on World of Minecraft servers have been friendly to me. i see a problem with the World of Minecraft upgrade policy. it says in the rules section that we shouldnt ask admins to see our work just because we want a higher rank. so far i see no way to get myself past the humble rank of member.
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Ninja, the staff can be often seen zipping around the server. Any build that catches their eye they will /whodid and note the person. Being asked constantly can get very annoying and so it's best just to let your build get noticed. If your build is truly AWESOME and you don't think anyone has seen it, by all means, ask a staff member if he has seen it. Try not to bug them to see your build, as they are probably busy with something else. Also, if more then one staff member is on and one says "i'm busy" don't ask any others. chances are they are too, or if they aren't they will come of their own accord.
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Hello i am new to World of Minecraft realms, well actually im new to minecraft it self, i bought the game only about 2 months ago and all because my stepson asked me to get it. I must say i have since however grown to love this game and truly think its the best creation for kids to get their imagination moving, not to mention problem solving and in fact my whole family plays it , all 7 of them :)...and that ranges from the ages of 6 to me 35, and i can see myself playing this for a long time to come. However the reason why i decided to post to this forum is because there is some things that i really do find both annoying and extremely disrespectful, and almost to the point of not wanting to play. As i stated before i am only new to it all, but in the short time i have played i have at least earnt enough attention to become test-overlord on a server ( no name as i dont want to be accused of spamming haha), and i know its only a game, but that does feel good that one is trusted for such a position, but i do think way too many people abuse their powers so to speak, and very often depends on their mood for the moment, i have often had conversations to teenagers about the whole random ranking and abuse of power, and has even resulted in me being demoted for enforcing the server rules, but that never last long as thankfully the owner is a smart guy. Now this statement may get many angry and not much i can do about that, but i truly think there should be an age restriction to the rank system, meaning a certain age to be able to be a certain rank, now dont get me wrong i have met many very mature and level headed teenagers and heck they are gettin smarter for each generation, however i still think there is a level of maturity or way of dealing with certain matters that mostly comes from growing and age. I must say it dont feel too good when some 11 yr old boy tells you to F off or shut the F up, and then has the power to kick or demote....and sorry to say but i hear and see that more often than not, not to say that would never happen with an adult, but like i said before, with age...Of course nothing stops executive decisions being made for the few non adults that have shown good leader skills, and therefore would be chosen by an adult.. Now i know many would say, but that would only create a devide amongst people, but i disagree if kids knew it is run by adults and not some power hungry disgrunted teenager, i think if anything it would make it more welcoming and friendly place. I my self find World of Minecraft realms to be an unfriendly feeling place, unless of course you already got friends on there or if you praise the one in powwer at the time for long enough then maby...I have been to World of Minecraft realms a few times and will continue to do so regardless, but out of all times i have been here, 1 time someone said a simple hello back, even after introduction and stating that one is new, NOTHING.. oh my bad i did get 1 person respond with WHO CARES, and when asking about how the system works the response was DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO ASK NOOB. oh i would like to respond to what you said earlier *Daedal* about people changing their attitude immediately when you enter, why dont you do what the owner of my server does often, and simply log on as a different person, i think you would get quite a shock to how much abuse and things being done wrongly actually goes on!.
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having said all that, i still think MC is the best game ever, and should you ever see me on there, dont hesitate to say hello :)
Thank you to all the people that make MC possible!
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This is a very old thread and the majority of it is outdated.
The place has yet again majorly changed since we introduced World of Minecraft: Realms and there is no staff rank structure anymore.
If you do find further issues please contact site staff or feel free to create a new up-to-date thread.
WoM Coins: -1
Some Ops might not be very friendly, but if you chat with the owners, they're all friendly. Anyway, the hacks are always off unless it is World of Minecraft or has a "+Hax" flag. I hope you do enjoy some of this world of Minecraft!